Greek Texts & Translations

That is very probable. Try, however, to learn from my description. This you understand—that in all gatherings and associations for any purpose whatsoever it is right that each group should always have a commander.

Of course.

Moreover, we have recently said that the commander of fighting men must be courageous.

Of course.

The courageous man is less perturbed by alarms than the coward. 640b

That is true, too.

Now if there had existed any device for putting an army in charge of a general who was absolutely impervious to fear or perturbation, should we not have made every effort to do so?

Most certainly.

But what we are discussing now is not the man who is to command an army in time of war, in meetings of foe with foe, but the man who is to command friends in friendly association with friends in time of peace.

Quite so. 640c

Such a gathering, if accompanied by drunkenness, is not free from disturbance, is it?

Certainly not; quite the reverse, I imagine.

So those people also need, in the first place, a commander?

Undoubtedly—they above all.

Should we, if possible, provide them with a commander who is imperturbable?

Certainly.

Naturally, also, he should be wise about social gatherings. For he has both to preserve 640dthe friendliness which already exists among the company and to see that the present gathering promotes it still further.

Very true.

Then the commander we set over drunken men should be sober and wise, rather than the opposite? For a commander of drunkards who was himself drunken, young, and foolish would be very lucky if he escaped doing some serious mischief.

Uncommonly lucky.

Suppose, then, that a man were to find fault with such institutions in States where they are managed in the best possible way, 640ehaving an objection to the institution in itself, he might perhaps be right in doing so but if a man abuses an institution when he sees it managed in the worst way possible, it is plain that he is ignorant, first, of the fact that it is badly conducted, and secondly, that every institution will appear similarly bad when it is carried on without a sober ruler and commander. For surely you perceive 641athat a sea-captain, and every commander of anything, if drunk, upsets everything, whether it be a ship or a chariot or an army or anything else that under his captaincy.

What you say, Stranger, is perfectly true. In the next place, then, tell us this:—suppose this institution of drinking were rightly conducted, of what possible benefit would it be to us? Take the case of an army, which we mentioned just now: there, given a right leader, his men will win victory in war, which is no small benefit; and so too with the other cases: but what solid advantage would accrue 641beither to individuals or to a State from the right regulation of a wine-party?

Well, what great gain should we say would accrue to the State from the right control of one single child or even of one band of children? To the question thus put to us we should reply that the State would benefit but little from one; if, however, you are putting a general question as to what solid advantage the State gains from the education of the educated, then it is quite simple to reply that well-educated men will prove good men, and being good they will conquer their foes in battle, 641cbesides acting nobly in other ways. Thus, while education brings also victory, victory sometimes brings lack of education for men have often grown more insolent because of victory in war, and through their insolence they have become filled with countless other vices; and whereas education has never yet proved to be “Cadmeian,” ^note the victories which men win in war often have been, and will be, “Cadmeian.”

You are implying, my friend, as it seems to us, that the convivial gathering, 641dwhen rightly conducted, is an important element in education.

Assuredly.

Could you then show us, in the next place, how this statement is true?

The truth of my statement, which is disputed by many, it is for God to assert; but I am quite ready to give, if required, my own opinion, now that we have, in fact, embarked on a discussion of laws and constitutions.

Well, it is precisely your opinion 641eabout the questions now in dispute that we are trying to learn.

Thus, then, we must do,—you must brace yourself in the effort to learn the argument, and I to expound it as best I can. But, first of all, I have a preliminary observation to make: our city, Athens, is, in the general opinion of the Greeks, both fond of talk and full of talk, but Lacedaemon is scant of talk, while Crete is more witty ^note than wordy;