Greek Texts & Translations

Say on.

I want us to call to mind again 653aour definition of right education. For the safekeeping of this depends, as I now conjecture, upon the correct establishment of the institution mentioned.

That is a strong statement!

What I state is this,—that in children the first childish sensations are pleasure and pain, and that it is in these first that goodness and badness come to the soul; but as to wisdom and settled true opinions, a man is lucky if they come to him even in old age and; he that is possessed of these blessings, and all that they comprise, 653bis indeed a perfect man. I term, then, the goodness that first comes to children “education.” When pleasure and love, and pain and hatred, spring up rightly in the souls of those who are unable as yet to grasp a rational account; and when, after grasping the rational account, they consent thereunto that they have been rightly trained in fitting practices:—this consent, viewed as a whole, is goodness, while the part of it that is rightly trained in respect of pleasures and pains, so as to hate what ought to be hated, right from the beginning 653cup to the very end, and to love what ought to be loved, if you were to mark this part off in your definition and call it “education,” you would be giving it, in my opinion, its right name.

You are quite right, Stranger, as it seems to us, both in what you said before and in what you say now about education.

Very good. Now these forms of child-training, which consist in right discipline in pleasures and pains, grow slack and weakened to a great extent 653din the course of men's lives; so the gods, in pity for the human race thus born to misery, have ordained the feasts of thanksgiving as periods of respite from their troubles; and they have granted them as companions in their feasts the Muses and Apollo the master of music, and Dionysus, that they may at least set right again their modes of discipline by associating in their feasts with gods. We must consider, then, whether the account that is harped on nowadays is true to nature? What it says is that, almost without exception, every young creature is able of keeping either its body or its tongue quiet, 653eand is always striving to move and to cry, leaping and skipping and delighting in dances and games, and uttering, also, noises of every description. Now, whereas all other creatures are devoid of any perception of the various kinds of order and disorder in movement (which we term rhythm and harmony), to men the very gods, who were given, as we said, to be our fellows in the dance, have granted the pleasurable perception of rhythm and harmony, whereby they cause us to move 654aand lead our choirs, linking us one with another by means of songs and dances; and to the choir they have given its name from the “cheer” implanted therein. ^note Shall we accept this account to begin with, and postulate that education owes its origin to Apollo and the Muses?

Yes.

Shall we assume that the uneducated man is without choir-training, 654band the educated man fully choir-trained?

Certainly.

Choir-training, as a whole, embraces of course both dancing and song.

Undoubtedly.

So the well-educated man will be able both to sing and dance well.

Evidently.

Let us now consider what this last statement of ours implies.

Which statement?

Our words are,—” he sings well and dances well”: 654cought we, or ought we not, to add,—“provided that he sings good songs and dances good dances”?

We ought to add this.

How then, if a man takes the good for good and the bad for bad and treats them accordingly? Shall we regard such a man as better trained in choristry and music when he is always able both with gesture and voice to represent adequately that which he conceives to be good, though he feels neither delight in the good nor hatred of the bad,—or when, though not wholly able to represent his conception rightly by voice and gesture, 654dhe yet keeps right in his feelings of pain and pleasure, welcoming everything good and abhorring everything not good.

There is a vast difference between the two cases, Stranger, in point of education.

If, then, we three understand what constitutes goodness in respect of dance and song, we also know who is and who is not rightly educated but without this knowledge we shall never be able to discern whether there exists any safeguard for education 654eor where it is to be found. Is not that so?

It is.

What we have next to track down, like hounds on the trail, is goodness of posture and tunes in relation to song and dance; if this eludes our pursuit, it will be in vain for us to discourse further concerning right education, whether of Greeks or of barbarians.

Yes.

Well then, however shall we define goodness of posture or of tune? Come, consider: when a manly soul is beset by troubles,