Greek Texts & Translations

It certainly would.

How then, and by what means, was it destroyed? Is it not worth while to enquire by what stroke of fortune so grand a confederacy was wrecked?

Yes for, if one passed over these examples, 686cone would not be likely to find elsewhere either laws or constitutions which preserve interests thus fair and great, or, on the contrary, wreck them totally.

Thus by a piece of good luck, as it seems, we have embarked on an enquiry of some importance.

Undoubtedly.

Now, my dear sir, do not men in general, like ourselves at the present moment, unconsciously fancy that every fine object they set eyes on would produce marvellous results, if only a man understood the right way to make a fine use of it? 686dBut for us to hold such an idea in regard to the matter before us would possibly be both wrong and against nature; and the same is true of all other cases where men hold such ideas.

What is it you mean? And what shall we say is the special point of your remarks ?

Why, my dear sir, I had a laugh at my own expense just now. For when I beheld this armament of which we are speaking, I thought it an amazingly fine thing, and that, if anyone had made a fine use of it at that time, it would have proved, as I said, 686ea wonderful boon to the Greeks.

And was it not quite right and sensible of you to say this, and of us to endorse it?

Possibly; I conceive, however, that everyone, when he beholds a thing that is large, powerful and strong, is instantly struck by the conviction that, if its possessor knew how to employ an instrument of that magnitude and quality, he could make himself happy by many wonderful achievements. 687a

Is not that a right conviction? Or what is your view?

Just consider what one ought to have in view in every instance, in order to justify the bestowal of such praise. And first, with regard to the matter now under discussion,—if the men who were then marshalling the army knew how to organize it properly, how would they have achieved success? Must it not have been by consolidating it firmly and by maintaining it perpetually, so that they should be both free themselves and masters over all others whom they chose, and so that both they and their children should do 687bin general just what they pleased throughout the world of Greeks and barbarians alike? Are not these the reasons why they would be praised?

Certainly.

And in every case where a man uses the language of eulogy on seeing great wealth or eminent family distinctions or anything else of the kind, would it not be true to say that, in using it, he has this fact specially in mind,—that the possessor of such things is likely, just because of this, to realize all, or at least the most and greatest, of his desires.

That is certainly probable. 687c

Come now, is there one object of desire—that now indicated by our argument—which is common to all men?

What is that?

The desire that, if possible, everything,—or failing that, all that is humanly possible—should happen in accordance with the demands of one's own heart.

To he sure.

Since this, then, is what we all wish always, alike in childhood and manhood and old age, it is for this, necessarily, that we should pray continually.

Of course. 687d

Moreover, on behalf of our friends we will join in making the same prayer which they make on their own behalf.

To be sure.

And a son is a friend to his father, the boy to the man.

Certainly.

Yet the father will often pray the gods that the things which the son prays to obtain may in no wise he granted according to the son's prayers.

Do you mean, when the son who is praying is still young and foolish?

Yes, and also when the father, either through age or through the hot temper of youth, 687ebeing devoid of all sense of right and justice, indulges in the vehement prayers of passion (like those of Theseus against Hippolytus ^note, when he met his luckless end), while the son, on the contrary, has a sense of justice,—in this case do you suppose that the son will echo his father's prayers?

I grasp your meaning. You mean, as I suppose, that what a man ought to pray and press for is not that everything should follow his own desire, while his desire in no way follows his own reason; but it is the winning of wisdom that everyone of us, States and individuals alike, ought to pray for and strive after. 688a

Yes. And what is more, I would recall to your recollection, as well as to my own, how it was said ^note (if you remember) at the outset that the legislator of a State, in settling his legal ordinances, must always have regard to wisdom. The injunction you gave was that the good lawgiver must frame all his laws with a view to war: I, on the other hand, maintained that, whereas by your injunction the laws would be framed with reference to one only of the four virtues, it was really essential