Greek Texts & Translations

Absolutely.

But supposing that some of them are neither absolutely nor moderately commensurable, some being commensurable and some not, whereas you regard them all as commensurable,—what do you think of your mental state with respect to them?

Evidently it is a sorry state.

Again, as regards the relation of line and surface to solid, or of surface and line to each other—do not all we Greeks imagine that these are somehow commensurable with one another? 820b

Most certainly.

But if they cannot be thus measured by any way or means, while, as I said, all we Greeks imagine that they can, are we not right in being ashamed for them all, and saying to them, “O most noble Greeks, this is one of those ‘necessary’ things which we said ^note it is disgraceful not to know, although there is nothing very grand in knowing such things.”

Of course.

In addition to these there are other matters, closely related to them, 820cin which we find many errors arising that are nearly akin to the errors mentioned.

What are they?

Problems concerning the essential nature of the commensurable and the incommensurable. For students who are not to be absolutely worthless it is necessary to examine these and to distinguish the two kinds, and, by proposing such problems one to another, to compete in a game that is worthy of them,—for this is a much more refined pastime than draughts for old men. 820d

No doubt. And, after all, draughts and these studies do not seem to be so very far apart.

I assert, then, Clinias, that these subjects must be learnt by the young; for they are, in truth, neither harmful nor hard, and when learnt by way of play they will do no damage at all to our State, but will do it good. Should anyone disagree, however, we must listen to him.

Of course.

Well then, if this is clearly the case, obviously we shall adopt these subjects; but if it seems clearly to be otherwise, we shall rule them out. 820e

Yes, obviously.

Shall we not, then, lay these down as necessary subjects of instruction, so that there may be no gap in our code of laws? Yet we ought to lay them down provisionally—like pledges capable of redemption—apart from the rest of our constitution, in case they fail to satisfy either us who enact them or you for whom they are enacted.

Yes, that is the right way to lay them down.

Consider next whether or not we approve of the children learning astronomy.

Just tell us your opinion.

About this there is a very strange fact—indeed, quite intolerable. 821a

What is that?

We commonly assert that men ought not to enquire concerning the greatest god and about the universe, nor busy themselves in searching out their causes, since it is actually impious to do so; whereas the right course, in all probability, is exactly the opposite.

Explain yourself.

My statement sounds paradoxical, and it might be thought to be unbecoming in an old man; but the fact is that, when a man believes that a science is fair and true and beneficial to the State and altogether well-pleasing to God, 821bhe cannot possibly refrain any longer from declaring it. ^note

That is reasonable; but what science of this kind shall we find on the subject of stars?

At present, my good sirs, nearly all we Greeks say what is false about those mighty deities, the Sun and Moon.

What is the falsehood?

We assert that they, and some other stars along with them, never travel along the same path; and we call them “planets.” ^note 821c

Yes, by Zeus, Stranger, that is true; for I, during my life, have often noticed how Phosphorus and Hesperus and other stars never travel on the same course, but “wander” all ways; but as to the Sun and Moon, we all know that they are constantly doing this.

It is precisely for this reason, Megillus and Clinias, that I now assert that our citizens and our children ought to learn so much concerning all these facts about the gods of Heaven 821das to enable them not to blaspheme about them, but always to speak piously both at sacrifices and when they pray reverently at prayers.

You are right, provided that, in the first place, it is possible to learn the subject you mention; and provided also that learning will make us correct any mistakes we may be making about them now,—then I, too, agree that a subject of such importance should be learned. This being so, do you make every effort to expound the matter, and we will endeavor to follow you and learn. 821e

Well, the matter I speak of is not an easy one to learn; nor yet is it altogether difficult and demanding very prolonged study. In proof of this—although I was told of it neither in the days of my youth nor long ago, I may be able to explain it to you in a comparatively short time. Whereas, if it had been a difficult subject, I should never have been able to explain it to you at all—I at my age to you at yours.

Very true. But what is this science which you describe as marvellous and fitting for the young to learn, and which we are ignorant about?