885bit has been already stated summarily what the punishment should be; and in respect of all the outrages, whether of word or deed, which a man commits, either by tongue or hand, against the gods, we must state the punishment he should suffer, after we have first delivered the admonition. It shall be as follows:—No one who believes, as the laws prescribe, in the existence of the gods has ever yet done an impious deed voluntarily, or uttered a lawless word: he that acts so is in one or other of these three conditions of mind—either he does not believe in what I have said; or, secondly, he believes that the gods exist, but have no care for men; or, thirdly, he believes that they are easy to win over when bribed by offerings and prayers. note
885cClinias
What, then, shall we do or say to such people?
Athenian
Let us listen first, my good sir, to what they, as I imagine, say mockingly, in their contempt for us.
Clinias
What is it?
Athenian
In derision they would probably say this: “O Strangers of Athens, Lacedaemon and Crete, what you say is true. Some of us do not believe in gods at all; others of us believe in gods of the kinds you mention. So we claim now, as you claimed in the matter of laws,
885dthat before threatening us harshly, you should first try to convince and teach us, by producing adequate proofs, that gods exist, and that they are too good to be wheedled by gifts and turned aside from justice. For as it is, this and such as this is the account of them we hear from those who are reputed the best of poets, orators, seers, priests, and thousands upon thousands of others; and consequently most of us, instead of seeking to avoid wrong-doing, do the wrong and then try to make it good.
885eNow from lawgivers like you, who assert that you are gentle rather than severe, we claim that you should deal with us first by way of persuasion; and if what you say about the existence of the gods is superior to the arguments of others in point of truth, even though it be but little superior in eloquence, then probably you would succeed in convincing us. Try then, if you think this reasonable, to meet our challenge.Clinias
Surely it seems easy, Stranger, to assert with truth
886athat gods exist?Athenian
How so?
Clinias
First, there is the evidence of the earth, the sun, the stars, and all the universe, and the beautiful ordering of the seasons, marked out by years and months; and then there is the further fact that all Greeks and barbarians believe in the existence of gods.
Athenian
My dear sir, these bad men cause me alarm—for I will never call it “awe”—lest haply they scoff at us. For the cause of the corruption in their case is one you are not aware of; since you imagine that it is solely by their incontinence in regard to pleasures and desires
886bthat their souls are impelled to that impious life of theirs.Clinias
What other cause can there be, Stranger, besides this?
Athenian
One which you, who live elsewhere, could hardly have any knowledge of or notice at all.
Clinias
What is this cause you are now speaking of?
Athenian
A very grievous unwisdom which is reputed to be the height of wisdom.
Clinias
What do you mean?
Athenian
We at Athens have accounts note preserved in writing (though, I am told, such do not exist in your country, owing to the excellence of your polity),
886csome of them being in a kind of meter, others without meter, telling about the gods: the oldest of these accounts relate how the first substance of Heaven and all else came into being, and shortly after the beginning they go on to give a detailed theogony, and to tell how, after they were born, the gods associated with one another. These accounts, whether good or bad for the hearers in other respects, it is hard for us to censure because of their antiquity; but as regards the tendance and respect due to parents, I certainly would never praise them or say that they are either helpful or wholly true accounts.
886dSuch ancient accounts, however, we may pass over and dismiss: let them be told in the way best pleasing to the gods. It is rather the novel views of our modern scientists note that we must hold responsible as the cause of mischief. For the result of the arguments of such people is this,—that when you and I try to prove the existence of the gods by pointing to these very objects—sun, moon, stars, and earth—as instances of deity and divinity, people who have been converted by these scientists will assert that these things are simply earth and stone,
886eincapable of paying any heed to human affairs, and that these beliefs of ours are speciously tricked out with arguments to make them plausible.Clinias
The assertion you mention, Stranger, is indeed a dangerous one, even if it stood alone; but now that such assertions are legion, the danger is still greater.
Athenian
What then? What shall we say? What must we do? Are we to make our defence as it were before a court of impious men, where someone had accused us
