| Plato, Republic (English) (XML Header) [genre: prose] [word count] [lemma count] [Pl. Resp.]. | ||
| <<Pl. Resp. 597e | Pl. Resp. 599e (Greek) | >>Pl. Resp. 601c |
599athey cannot perceive that these are three removes from reality, and easy to produce without knowledge of the truth. For it is phantoms, note not realities, that they produce. Or is there something in their claim, and do good poets really know the things about which the multitude fancy they speak well?” “We certainly must examine the matter,” he said. “Do you suppose, then, that if a man were able to produce both the exemplar and the semblance, he would be eager to abandon himself to the fashioning of phantoms note and set this in the forefront
599bof his life as the best thing he had?” “I do not.” “But, I take it, if he had genuine knowledge of the things he imitates he would far rather devote himself to real things note than to the imitation of them, and would endeavor to leave after him many noble deeds note and works as memorials of himself, and would be more eager to be the theme of praise than the praiser.” “I think so,” he said; “for there is no parity in the honor and the gain.” “Let us not, then, demand a reckoning note from Homer
599cor any other of the poets on other matters by asking them, if any one of them was a physician and not merely an imitator of a physician's talk, what men any poet, old or new, is reported to have restored to health as Asclepius did, or what disciples of the medical art he left after him as Asclepius did his descendants; and let us dismiss the other arts and not question them about them; but concerning the greatest and finest things of which Homer undertakes to speak, wars and generalship note
599dand the administration of cities and the education of men, it surely is fair to question him and ask, ‘Friend Homer, if you are not at the third remove from truth and reality in human excellence, being merely that creator of phantoms whom we defined as the imitator, but if you are even in the second place and were capable of knowing what pursuits make men better or worse in private or public life, tell us what city was better governed owing to you, note even as Lacedaemon was because of Lycurgus, note and many other cities
599egreat and small because of other legislators. But what city credits you with having been a good legislator and having benefited them? Italy and Sicily say this of Charondas and we of Solon. note But who says it of you?’ Will he be able to name any?” “I think not,” said Glaucon; “at any rate none is mentioned even by the Homerids themselves.” “Well, then,
600ais there any tradition of a war in Homer's time that was well conducted by his command or counsel?” “None.” “Well, then, as might be expected of a man wise in practical affairs, are many and ingenious inventions note for the arts and business of life reported of Homer as they are of Thales note the Milesian and Anacharsis note the Scythian?” “Nothing whatever of the sort.” “Well, then, if no public service is credited to him, is Homer reported while he lived to have been a guide in education to men who took pleasure in associating with him
600band transmitted to posterity a certain Homeric way of life note just as Pythagoras note was himself especially honored for this, and his successors, even to this day, denominating a certain way of life the Pythagorean, note are distinguished among their contemporaries?” “No, nothing of this sort either is reported; for Creophylos, note Socrates, the friend of Homer, would perhaps be even more ridiculous than his name note as a representative of Homeric culture and education, if what is said about Homer is true. For the tradition is that Homer was completely neglected in his own lifetime by that friend of the flesh.”
600c“Why, yes, that is the tradition,” said I; “but do you suppose, Glaucon, that, if Homer had really been able to educate men note and make them better and had possessed not the art of imitation but real knowledge, he would not have acquired many companions and been honored and loved by them? But are we to believe that while Protagoras note of Abdera and Prodicus note of Ceos and many others are able by private teaching 600dto impress upon their contemporaries the conviction that they will not be capable of governing their homes or the city note unless they put them in charge of their education, and make themselves so beloved for this wisdom note that their companions all but note carry them about on their shoulders, note yet, forsooth, that Homer's contemporaries, if he had been able to help men to achieve excellence, note would have suffered him or Hesiod to roam about rhapsodizing and would not have clung to them far rather than to their gold, note and constrained them to dwell with them note in their homes,
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| <<Pl. Resp. 597e | Pl. Resp. 599e (Greek) | >>Pl. Resp. 601c |
